View Full Version : Is this a hypocrisy or sweet heart wedding?
curious-one 02-Feb-07, 22:02 Islam and communist, how they relate? The Chinese President is in official visit to Sudan and the Islamic government in Khartoum prepared a public welcome to Chinese’s President.
We all know base on history of Sudan and Islam that Islam has its enemies with different degrees; the fist enemy to Islam is Jews, the second is communist, the third is Christianity and the west. People will argue that is not true, but to me you have to be politician in a political incorrect to argue that point or someone out of reality. With that being said; what make Islamic government wants to merry to its #1 enemy? Is this the game of politic that says your enemy enemy is your best friend? If that is the case; what about the Islamic believes against communist? Are they not count at this time? If they do count, do the Islamist in Khartoum become nonbelievers too or infidel? Or this is the beginning of Islamic reform in Sudan?
Hey people I don’t want to give answer to these questions because I want us to debate the issue and to see everyone thought on it; but remember that the core point here is the public welcome of Chinese President that is beyond official welcome any head of state can get in any nation.
HisHighness 02-Feb-07, 22:49 hi curious one..i didn't recognize you in the new SDB..:D
talking about Sudan-China relationship..i can say its an old love story
:D
:D
no one can deny the fact that Chinese and Sudanese economies are opening up and growing rapidly ..China strategy is to make Sudan Africa's largest oil producer, outside Nigeria(The Economist.com)..:cool:
HisHighness 02-Feb-07, 23:06 ÈÞáã Úáí ÇÓãÇÚíá ÇáÚÊÈÇäí
emai: atabani@rayaam.net
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ÇÎÊáÇÝ ãÝÇåíã
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HisHighness 02-Feb-07, 23:12 ÈÞáã Úáí ÇÓãÇÚíá ÇáÚÊÈÇä
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HisHighness 02-Feb-07, 23:14 ä.. æÚáÇÞÇÊ ÇáÕíä ãÚ ÇáÓæÏÇä ÞÏíãÉ Èá ÃËÈÊÊ ÇáÍÝÑíÇÊ Ýí ãíäÇÁí (ÚíÐÇÈ) æ(ÓæÇßä) æÌæÏ ÇáÈÖÇÆÚ ÇáÕíäíÉ ããËáÉ Ýí ÇáÎÒÝ æÇáÍÑíÑ æÇáÕäÇÚÇÊ ÇáÕíäíÉ ÇáÞÏíãÉ ÞÈá ÃáÝí ÚÇã.
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C_O,
It is just business, both sides are merchants willing to sell anything that can be converted into currency!
China is on a shopping spree for all things natural in Africa: Minerals as well as hydrocarbons.
Khalid,
I see you are still trying to promote the Ingaz (The Economist was a nice touch)!!:cool:
FYI: Sudan is the third largest producer in sub-Sahara Africa. Its reserves are sixth.
Sudan’s ranking goes down further if you include Algeria and Libya, and Egypt.
China is in the Sudan because it knows how to buy officials who will sell their soul for a $ and Sudan's oil infrastructure will come calling soon needing an upgarde from all the subpar engineering and materials used.
curious-one 02-Feb-07, 23:33 C_O,
It is just business, both sides are merchants willing to sell anything that can be converted into currency!
China is on a shopping spree for all things natural in Africa: Minerals as well as hydrocarbons.
Khalid,
I see you are still trying to promote the Ingaz (The Economist was a nice touch)!!:cool:
FYI: Sudan is the third largest producer in sub-Sahara Africa. Its reserves are sixth.
Sudan’s ranking goes down further if you include Algeria and Libya, and Egypt.
China is in the Sudan because it knows how to buy officials who will sell their soul for a $ and Sudan's oil infrastructure will come calling soon needing an upgarde from all the subpar engineering and materials used.
Sultan,
If that is the case, do the public understand that? Do the public agree with Ingaz? have you seen any head of state welcome in Sudan as this one? The Saudi's King came to Sudan, but it was an official welcome not public.
curious-one 02-Feb-07, 23:40 hi curious one..i didn't recognize you in the new SDB..:D
talking about Sudan-China relationship..i can say its an old love story
:D
:D
no one can deny the fact that Chinese and Sudanese economies are opening up and growing rapidly ..China strategy is to make Sudan Africa's largest oil producer, outside Nigeria(The Economist.com)..:cool:
Why not! is that because you are a crown of the new SF? lol
Supporting Ingaz is understandable, but what Islam say abut communist don't you believe in it any more. Are you now became a new pace of Ingaz reformers? If we can forgive and for get, why don't we start in the house then go outside, can Ingaz do that?
curious-one 03-Feb-07, 00:16 It seems that Ingaz knows how to play its cards.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6323017.stm
OOOwly shitz!!!
80%of Sudan's oil goez to China!
Iz that good at all?
curious-one 03-Feb-07, 00:47 OOOwly shitz!!!
80%of Sudan's oil goez to China!
Iz that good at all?
Do you know what percentage they have for drilling oil in Sudan compare to what Sudan get as the owner? You will be amaize if you find that out.
Do you know what percentage they have for drilling oil in Sudan compare to what Sudan get as the owner? You will be amaize if you find that out.
Sorry i actually don't. Please educate:)
HisHighness 03-Feb-07, 11:00 China is in the Sudan because it knows how to buy officials
i don't buy that Sultan you are trying to tarnish the image of Ingaz and you don't want to say the truth becuase of your political motives being a communist and so on.however as a communist you should be happy to see greater cooperation between Sudan and China..:cool:..
HisHighness 03-Feb-07, 11:02 Why not! is that because you are a crown of the new SF? lol
Supporting Ingaz is understandable, but what Islam say abut communist don't you believe in it any more. Are you now became a new pace of Ingaz reformers? If we can forgive and for get, why don't we start in the house then go outside, can Ingaz do that?
:D:D
Islam has communist and socialist concepts as well as democratic concepts..there is a large Muslim community in China and as you can see cooperation must continue and FDI must increase..
HisHighness 03-Feb-07, 11:04 OOOwly shitz!!!
80%of Sudan's oil goez to China!
Iz that good at all?
well you dont have to worry about finding a reliable customer..:D
HisHighness 03-Feb-07, 11:07 .. æåÇ åí ÐÇÊ ÇáÃíÇÏí ÐÇÊ ÇáÞæì ÇáÊí ÓÚÊ ØæíáÇð ááÅíÞÇÚ Èíä (ÇáÎÑØæã) æ(Èßíä) ÈÇÓã ÇáÌäæÈ æÈÇÓã ÇáÓáÇã æÈÇÓã ÈÊÑæá ÇáÏã¡ ÊÓÚì Çáíæã ááæÞíÚÉ ãÑÉ ÃÎÑì ÈÇÓã ÏÇÑÝæÑ. æåí Ýí ßá Ðáß ÊÖÚ ÚíäåÇ Úáì ÇáÓæÞ ÇáÓæÏÇäí æÊÑíÏ Ãä ÊÓÍÈå æÊÈÇÚÏ Èíäå æÈíä ÇáÓæÞ ÇáÕíäí.. æÊÑíÏ Ãä ÊÈÇÚÏ Èíä ÇáÕíä æÇáÈÊÑæá ÇáÓæÏÇäí.. æÊÑíÏ ØÑÏ ÇáÕíä ÇáÊí ÌÇÁÊ ÕÏÇÞÇÊåÇ æãÄåáÇÊåÇ æÞÏÑÇÊåÇ æÍÖÇÑÊåÇ ÇáãæÛáÉ Ýí ÇáÊÇÑíÎ.
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;););)
HisHighness 03-Feb-07, 14:53 Chinese President Hu Jintao has agreed on a series of economic deals in Sudan, which China has protected from UN sanctions over the Darfur conflict.
China announced an interest-free loan to build a new presidential palace, and said it would build two schools. China already buys most of Sudan's oil.
Mr Hu called for "dialogue" to find a peaceful solution in Darfur.
Western countries have urged him to put pressure on Sudan over the conflict, in which 200,000 people have died.
CHINA, SUDAN TIES
China buys some 400,000 barrels of oil a day from Sudan
China financed Sudan's oil pipeline
China sells weapons to Sudan
China to build new presidential palace for Sudan
China uses UN Security Council veto to help Sudan
Mr Hu did mention Darfur in his discussion with Sudan's President Omar al-Bashir.
Only Sudanese and Chinese journalists were allowed to see the discussion.
Xinhua, China's state-owned news agency, quoted Mr Hu as saying: "Any solution [in Darfur] needs to respect the sovereignty of Sudan and be based on dialogue."
He reportedly said that the United Nations and the African Union both had constructive roles to play and that wisdom and creativity were needed to achieve peace.
The rest of the day was devoted to cementing the strong economic ties between the two countries.
China has used its veto at the UN Security Council to block moves to impose sanctions on Sudan unless it stops the fighting in Darfur.
The BBC's Jonah Fisher in the capital, Khartoum, says the Sudanese government meanwhile has violated numerous ceasefire agreements, bombing civilians and launching ground assaults - often with weapons bought directly from China.
As the main investor in Sudan and a key trading partner, China could have played a key role in trying to resolve the war in Darfur, he says.
The UN wants to take control of the beleaguered African Union peacekeeping force in Darfur but Mr Bashir opposes this, saying the UN should only provide logistical support.
They came to our help, they did not impose any conditions on us and so we had to take them
Ali Abdulla Ali
Sudanese economist
'Peaceful rise' draws criticism
Hundreds of people, Sudanese and Chinese, lined the streets of Khartoum to welcome Mr Hu at the start of his two-day visit - the first to Sudan by a Chinese leader.
Sudan's economy is growing at close to 10% a year and much of that is down to its relationship with China.
In the 1980s and 1990s, when human rights abuses and civil war forced Western companies to pull out, China stepped in.
Beijing financed a 1,600km (1,000 miles) pipeline, taking oil from the south to Port Sudan on the Red Sea.
Exports are now close to 500,000 barrels per day, with about 80% of that going directly to China.
'No conditions'
Sudanese economist Ali Abdulla Ali said working with China made sense.
map
"When they came in, they wanted to help us to produce the oil because they needed it. So you really can't say much about that," he told the BBC.
"They came to our help, they did not impose any conditions on us and so we had to take them."
Our reporter says it is the lack of conditions which Beijing attaches to its business relationships which so infuriates Western governments.
Mr Hu is visiting Sudan on the latest leg of his eight-country African tour.
He arrived from Liberia, where he signed a number of aid and investment deals.
China is becoming a major trading partner for countries across Africa, not just Sudan.
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HisHighness 03-Feb-07, 14:59 [quote=HisHighness;1126]
China announced an interest-free loan to build a new presidential palace,
C/quote]
:eek:
HisHighness 03-Feb-07, 18:54 http://wwwcache.wral.com/asset/news/national_world/world/2007/02/02/1190628/ADM10502022059_SUDAN_CHINA.sff-512x341.jpg
curious-one 03-Feb-07, 21:06 Sorry i actually don't. Please educate:)
Sudan is geting only between 10% to 20% from overall oil production; 80% to 90% goes to companies which are financing the oil production for the duration of contract that is about 20 years or more.
curious-one 03-Feb-07, 21:17 [quote=HisHighness;1126]
China announced an interest-free loan to build a new presidential palace,
C/quote]
:eek:
HH,
If you have investment in any part of the world, don't you think you should have grantee for your assets return? Can you tell me what are chinese grantee for their business in Sudan? By grantee, I means the conutry must be at peace to do trade with but china business in Sudan started within conflict in Sudan and no end wars. Are the following solutions are the chinese bank account for their assets in Sudan?
curious-one 03-Feb-07, 21:19 HH,
Here is the link for Chinese propose solution in Sudan.
http://www.sudantribune.com/spip.php?article20079
*babydolllXXX* 03-Feb-07, 21:33 :flag: :flag: :flag: :flag: :flag: :flag: :flag:
Sudan is geting only between 10% to 20% from overall oil production; 80% to 90% goes to companies which are financing the oil production for the duration of contract that is about 20 years or more.
So basically about 10%
20 yrs or more!!
:D
HH, did i hear you say interest free for that Prez Palace!!!
well you dont have to worry about finding a reliable customer..:D
:D HH, that is if been stuck is what you call a reliable customeR!!! and g'luck;)
And could you blease xblain what you mean Islam has a communistic concepts as well?
without using the Chinese mulsims as your back up:D
curious-one 04-Feb-07, 00:09 So basically about 10%
20 yrs or more!!
:D
HH, did i hear you say interest free for that Prez Palace!!!
You got it!
As they said that China came to help without a condition, shouldn't Sudan be getting 25% to 50% of overall oil product?
curious-one 04-Feb-07, 00:10 :flag: :flag: :flag: :flag: :flag: :flag: :flag:
Thanks for stoping by babydolllXXX. Hope you started a good new year.
C_O & Misteer,
The Share of 5-10% is the equity stake of the Sudan in some of the Consortia working the area of oil development. Typically a country will also have a sovereign share in the oil extracted. Sudan sells what is left over from the share of domestic refineries this in the international market (they do it every two months to qualified bidders). I have seen estimates of Sudan share as high as 67-70%.
The Chinese usually take their share in oil. Some have raised serious concerns about how the Chinese are managing the oil infrastructure and materials used.
The current problem for all of us is we don’t actually know how much is being produced – the Ingaz after promising to raise output to 600K is now claiming delays (actually both delays and poor engineering) are causing some delays – some in the SPLM claim output as high as 800K, which I think is a gross exaggeration.
Ironic too, after Navaisha the SPLM was adamant on revealing all the details surrounding the concession agreements. However, once it was offered the Energy Portfolio is agreed to the Ingaz terms of dominance and exclusivity of the Petroleum Commission … then the Ingaz cheated them out of the Portfolio and the Commissions are inert. Now we have Mrs. Reik Machar as State Energy Minister, Mr. Machar is also rumored to be behind the White Nile Company set up, which will soon break ground on a concession held by France’s Total.
For the masses of ordinary Sudanese we remain the dark about how much revenue the country is making nor do we know exactly how much is being produced/exported. We also receive no subsidies as far as products sold on the Sudanese market(s).
C_O,
As you can tell by the almost infantile exuberance glee and enthusiasm of Hishighness (an MBA student by the way) China is seen as benign force in the Sudan – Friendship Hall, Bridges …etc. The Politics and Economics of China’s role in the country are obscured by the contrived belligerence of US policy toward the regime in Khartoum. So, yes people may get out to see the new visitor as they do with every other visitor willing to run the gauntlet. I believe the last person was Melez Zinawi in Port Sudan (incidentally it is not something he does in AA).
HisHighness 04-Feb-07, 15:13 [quote=HisHighness;1131]
HH,
If you have investment in any part of the world, don't you think you should have grantee for your assets return? Can you tell me what are chinese grantee for their business in Sudan? By grantee, I means the conutry must be at peace to do trade with but china business in Sudan started within conflict in Sudan and no end wars. Are the following solutions are the chinese bank account for their assets in Sudan?
i didnt understand your question..can you rephrase it..and what do you think about China's gift : the New Presidential Palace.i think its going to be a masterpiece..
HisHighness 04-Feb-07, 15:16 :D HH, that is if been stuck is what you call a reliable customeR!!! and g'luck;)
And could you blease xblain what you mean Islam has a communistic concepts as well?
without using the Chinese mulsims as your back up:D
:D
Islam says wealth should be shared equally..the Zaka which a primary obligation is an example..
HisHighness 04-Feb-07, 15:19 HH,
Here is the link for Chinese propose solution in Sudan.
http://www.sudantribune.com/spip.php?article20079
thank u very much
China and Sudan signed today seven cooperation accords in order to boost the growing economic exchange between the two countries, the state-run Suna reported.
President Omar al-Bashir and Chinese President Hu Jintao attended the signing of seven agreements between the two countries in the various fields of economic and technical cooperation at the Friendship Hall in Khartoum on Friday.
The accords include agreement on humanitarian aid to Darfur, a grant from the Chinese government amounting to 40m Yen (4.8 mln US dollars).
The two countries also signed a loan agreement for new presidential palace project of some 100 mln Yen and 90 mln Yen loan agreement from the old loans extended by China to the government of Sudan.
China has agreed to give Sudan an interest-free loan of 100 mln yuan and a grant of 40 mln for a variety of projects, Sudanese Finance Minister Al-Zubair Ahmed Hassan said.
The agreements also included a protocol on pardoning part of Sudan due debts to China amounting to some 470m Yen and 19m dollars. The Chinese president Hu Jintao announced cancellation of due debts of Sudan todaty.
The agreements further included zero-tariff agreement, which is a preferential one covering 44 Sudanese commodities exported to China.
The two sides also signed agreement on implementation of two schools in the rural areas in Sudan and another one for establishment of a centre for agricultural technology.
(ST)
curious-one 04-Feb-07, 21:09 Sultan,
Base on CPA, SPLM should have been given access to all contracts signed by Sudan government before CPA with condition that SPLM can not renegotiate the contracts but has their opinion about contracts. By that means, both have to find better ways if contracts are seems not to Sudan benefit.
Yes, the Ingaz cheated SPLM; the SPLM should know how much oil is produced everyday and how is sealed everyday in order to calculate their share.
As the commission has become an inner, is a something I have to do more research about it.
curious-one 04-Feb-07, 21:13 [quote=curious-one;1297]
i didnt understand your question..can you rephrase it..and what do you think about China's gift : the New Presidential Palace.i think its going to be a masterpiece..
You understand what I said; it is simple, what china will get in return if Sudan has fall apart?
That is not call a gift, there is a different between gift and loan. Do you means loan without interest is a gift? Are you :confused: ?
You got it!
As they said that China came to help without a condition, shouldn't Sudan be getting 25% to 50% of overall oil product?
hehehe...there ain't a thing called without a condtion. as for the other take tha to thy leader:-?
curious-one 05-Feb-07, 00:03 hehehe...there ain't a thing called without a condtion. as for the other take tha to thy leader:-?
I think HH and Ingaz followers should know that by now.
Hi Sultan
There is no happy ending when kept in the dark,hopefully it is not the masses that would pay.
a Q
what are the employement chances in the oil fields there for ordinary sudanese in sudan or that is also dictated?
:D
Islam says wealth should be shared equally..the Zaka which a primary obligation is an example..
Zaka= Charity,right:D
Well, i guess that could be said the same with every religions and all those Charity organizations around the world:roll:
C_O,
The oil belongs to the people of the Sudan – it is not for the Ingaz and SPLM to fight over as it is personal loot!
The initial attitude of the Movement about making the contract (as far production shares…etc) public was right. Once it was convinced that there was no need for transparency – then it lost both politically and morally – Awad Al Jaz or Mrs. Machar – operating under the radar is not in the interest of ordinary Sudanese.
The SPLM can not renegotiate contracts by itself – it is not a sovereign government and it promised to uphold Sudan’s prior foreign commitments. What it traded was our right (ordinary and marginalized Sudanese) to know how much and for how long. In the process it was outsmarted by the NCP and made itself suspect on the issue of transparency and good governace!!
Misteer,
Every bidder who wins a bimonthly contract is obligated to offer training to the Sudanese on aspects of the international oil business.
Employment in the Sector is a function of patronage, tribalism, political allegiance, and nepotism. Ordinary Sudanese stand little to no chance of being employment even if they know more about the business than both Ministers.
The security forces vets all those involved in the sector – even foreign employees of foreign companies, particularly those that are not Chinese, Indian, and/or Malaysian!
I think HH and Ingaz followers should know that by now.
hahaha:lool:
Curious-one we are africans remember! we are easily fooled:tears: any bling bling makes us all go:jump: no matter what the cost:-?
curious-one 05-Feb-07, 01:14 C_O,
The oil belongs to the people of the Sudan – it is not for the Ingaz and SPLM to fight over as it is personal loot!
The initial attitude of the Movement about making the contract (as far production shares…etc) public was right. Once it was convinced that there was no need for transparency – then it lost both politically and morally – Awad Al Jaz or Mrs. Machar – operating under the radar is not in the interest of ordinary Sudanese.
The SPLM can not renegotiate contracts by itself – it is not a sovereign government and it promised to uphold Sudan’s prior foreign commitments. What it traded was our right (ordinary and marginalized Sudanese) to know how much and for how long. In the process it was outsmarted by the NCP and made itself suspect on the issue of transparency and good governace!!
Misteer,
Every bidder who wins a bimonthly contract is obligated to offer training to the Sudanese on aspects of the international oil business.
Employment in the Sector is a function of patronage, tribalism, political allegiance, and nepotism. Ordinary Sudanese stand little to no chance of being employment even if they know more about the business than both Ministers.
The security forces vets all those involved in the sector – even foreign employees of foreign companies, particularly those that are not Chinese, Indian, and/or Malaysian!
I understand that, but my hope was only for years before election to kick out Ingaz; now it seems very hard to kick out Ingaz in up coming election; and it seems Sudan is not going to be united after all; it is sad, but it is the truth, Sultan.
I understand that, but my hope was only for years before election to kick out Ingaz; now it seems very hard to kick out Ingaz in up coming election; and it seems Sudan is not going to be united after all; it is sad, but it is the truth, Sultan.
C_O,
The only way to democratically remove the NIF is through collaboration on the issues that determine the rules of the game!
I am not sure that our collective failure to that will actually result in a smooth exist for the South. A more likely scenario is more war down the road.
curious-one 06-Feb-07, 08:02 C_O,
The only way to democratically remove the NIF is through collaboration on the issues that determine the rules of the game!
I am not sure that our collective failure to that will actually result in a smooth exist for the South. A more likely scenario is more war down the road.
I gree; but it seems is not working as you and I talk about before; the dark secret and bad intentions among some parties.
SPLM had meeting today and is asking all Sudanese including Ingaz to give unity last chance; I hope all other party see know is the outcome if the CPA have to fail.
The southerners would be naive if the consider the exit will be smooth one if the unity fail;
curious-one 11-Feb-07, 03:58 This can be seen as preparation for the battle that is going to happen between west on one hand and the China and Islamist on the other. question is will Africa benefit from these war or competition?
HisHighness 11-Feb-07, 16:40 The only way to democratically remove the NIF
when you start using the right 'names' you will be able to find the right path otherwise you will be going around forever in empty circles..
Shabatoot 11-Feb-07, 22:42 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00
curious-one 12-Feb-07, 03:56 when you start using the right 'names' you will be able to find the right path otherwise you will be going around forever in empty circles..
Are you a NIF or NC consular in Malaysia? I hard that there was a big party going on there last month.
China involvment in Sudan has something to do with oil rather than putting pressure for peace in the regoin of Darfur.It is the other side of the coin.:tears:
I think if he doesn't (HU) urge Khartoum government about the Darfur problem, he fears Sudan-China ties could be distorted.
The welcome was abit dictated since only journalists from the two sides were allowed. China is sudan enemy and that why they offered a loan interest free to bridge the enmity.Is that going to engineered a long lasting relationship with Sudan?
HisHighness 12-Feb-07, 15:27 Are you a NIF or NC consular in Malaysia? I hard that there was a big party going on there last month.
i think that NC is the only party that is qualified to lead our country for the time being and maybe for more to come..:lool: the NIF..just forget it..:lool: ..there are always Sudanese functions here but all of them are Student events becuase 99% of Sudanese population in this country are students..
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