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ÇááÛÉ¡ Ãí áÛÉ¡ åí ÚÈÇÑÉ Úä ÃÕæÇÊ ãÚíäÉ ÊãËá ÑãæÒÇð ÇÊÝÞÊ ãÌãæÚÉ ãä ÇáäÇÓ Úáì Ãä ßá ÑãÒ ãä åÐå ÇáÑãæÒ íÚäí ÔíÆÇð ãÚíäÇð áÏì ÌãíÚ ÃÝÑÇÏ ÇáãÌãæÚÉ ÇáãÚäíÉ. æÃÛáÈ ÇááÛÇÊ ÇáÍíÉ ÊÑÌÚ Ýí ÃÕáåÇ Åáì áÛÉ ÓÇÈÞÉ áåÇ ÞÏ ÇäÞÑÖÊ Ãæ ãÇ ÒÇáÊ ãÓÊÚãáÉ Ýí ÃæÓÇØ ãÌãæÚÉ ÕÛíÑÉ ÊãËá ÅÍÏì ÇáÃÞáíÇÊ ÇáÅËäíÉ Ýí ÈáÏò ãÇ. ÝÃÛáÈ ÇááÛÇÊ ÇáÃæÑÈíÉ ÊÑÌÚ Ýí ÃÕáåÇ Åáì ÇááÛÉ ÇááÇÊíäíÉ ÇáÊí ÇäÞÑÖÊ. æÇááÛÉ ÇáÚÑÈíÉ æáÏÊ ãä ÑÍã ÇááÛÊíä ÇáÂÑÇãíÉ æÇáÓÑíÇäíÉ. æÇááÛÇÊ ÇáÍíÉ¡ ãËáåÇ ãËá ÇáãÎáæÞÇÊ¡ ÊÊÛíÑ æÊÊØæÑ ãÚ ãÑæÑ ÇáÒãä äÓÈÉ áÇÍÊßÇß ÃåáåÇ ÈËÞÇÝÇÊ ÃÎÑì áã Êßä ãÚÑæÝÉ áåã ÚäÏãÇ æáÏÊ áÛÊåã. æáßä ãåãÇ ÊØæÑÊ ÇááÛÉ æÊÞÏãÊ ÝáÇ íãßä Ãä ÊÊÛíÑ ãÚÇäí ßáãÇÊåÇ æÅäãÇ ÊÊØæÑ ÈÅÖÇÝÉ ßáãÇÊ æÇÔÊÞÇÞÇÊ ÌÏíÏÉ. æåäÇß Ýí ÚÇáãäÇ Çáíæã ÍæÇáí ÓÊ ÂáÇÝ æÎãÓãÇÆÉ áÛÉ¡ ãäåÇ ÍæÇáí ÃáÝíä áÛÉ íÊÍÏË ßáÇð ãäåÇ ãÇ áÇ íÒíÏ Úä ÃáÝ ÔÎÕò. æÇáÐí íåãäÇ Ýí åÐå ÇááÛÇÊ ÔíÆÇä: ÇáÃæá: åæ ÅÕÑÇÑ ÇáãÓáãíä Úáì Ãä ÇáÞÑÂä ÃõäÒá áÌãíÚ åÄáÇÁ ÇáäÇÓ æáßä ÈÇááÛÉ ÇáÚÑÈíÉ. æÇáËÇäí: åæ Ãä ÇáãÓáãíä ÕÑÝæÇ ÇáäÙÑ Úä ÇáÑÓÇáÉ ÇáÊí ÌÇÁ ÈåÇ ÇáÞÑÂä æÃÕÈÍæÇ íÚÈÏæä áÛÉ ÇáÞÑÂä Ýí ÐÇÊåÇ æÌÚáæÇ áå ÚáæãÇð ÊÝæÞ ÌãíÚ ÇáÚáæã ÇáØÈíÚíÉ ÇáãÚÑæÝÉ áåã.
ÝÈÇáäÓÈÉ ááãÔßáÉ ÇáÃæáí¡ Ãí äÒæá ÇáÞÑÂä ÈÇááÛÉ ÇáÚÑÈíÉ¡ ÝÅä Ãåá ÇáÊÝÓíÑ íÕÑæä Ãäå (áÇ íÌæÒ ÞÑÇÁÉ ÇáÞÑÂä ÈÇáÚÌãíÉ ãØáÞÇð ÓæÇÁ ÃÍÓä ÇáÔÎÕ ÇáÚÑÈíÉ Ãã áÇ¡ Ýí ÇáÕáÇÉ Ãã ÎÇÑÌåÇ) (ÇáÅÊÞÇä Ýí Úáæã ÇáÞÑÂä ááÓíæØí). æÇáÓÈÈ ØÈÚÇð áÃäåã íÌÒãæä Ãä ÇáÞÑÂä åæ ßáÇã Çááå ÇáÐí äØÞ Èå¡ æÚáíå íÌÈ Úáì Ãåá ÌãíÚ åÐå ÇááÛÇÊ ÇáÊí ÐßÑäÇå Ãä íÊÚáãæÇ ÇáÚÑÈíÉ áíÞÑÁæÇ ÈåÇ ÇáÞÑÂä¡ ÍÊì Åä áã íÝåãæÇ ãÚäÇå. ÝÇáÐí íÞÑà ÇáÞÑÂä ÈÇáÚÑÈíÉ æáÇ íÝåã ãÚäÇå íßÇÝÆå Çááå ÈÚÏÉ ÍÓäÇÊ¡ ÝÞÏ ÃõÎÑÌ ãä ÍÏíË ÚãÑ ãÑÝæÚÇð (ãä ÞÑà ÇáÞÑÂä ÝÃÚÑÈå ßÇä áå Èßá ÍÑÝ ÚÔÑæä ÍÓäÉ æãä ÞÑÃå ÈÛíÑ ÅÚÑÇÈ ßÇä áå Èßá ÍÑÝ ÚÔÑ ÍÓäÇÊ) æÇáãÑÇÏ ÈÅÚÑÇÈå ãÚÑÝÉ ãÚÇäí ÃáÝÇÙå æáíÓ ÇáãÑÇÏ Èå ÇáÅÚÑÇÈ ÇáãÕØáÍ Úáíå ÚäÏ ÇáäÍÇÉ (ÇáÓíæØí). æÚáíå¡ íÌÈ Úáì ÌãíÚ Ãåá ÇáÃÑÖ Ãä íÞÑÁæÇ ÇáÞÑÂä ÈÇááÛÉ ÇáÚÑÈíÉ ÍÊì æÅä áã íÝåãæå¡ æÓæÝ íÚØí Çááå áßá æÇÍÏ ãäåã ÚÔÑÉ ÍÓäÇÊ Úä ßá ÍÑÝ. (æíÇáåÇ ãä ÊÌÇÑÉò ÑÇÈÍÉ). æíÚÌÒ ÝåãäÇ ÇáãÍÏæÏ Úä ÇÓÊíÚÇÈ ÇáÓÈÈ ÇáÐí ãä ÇÌáå ÊÌÇåá ÇáãÝÓÑæä ÇáÂíÉ ÇáÞÑÂäíÉ ÇáÊí ÊÞæá (æãÇ ÃÑÓáäÇ ãä ÑÓæáò ÅáÇ ÈáÓÇä Þæãå áíÈíä áåã ÝíÖá Çááå ãä íÔÇÁ æíåÏí ãä íÔÇÁ) (ÅÈÑÇåíã 4). ÝÇáÓÈÈ Ýí ÅÑÓÇá ÇáÑÓæá ÈáÓÇä Þæãå åæ Ýåã ãÇ ÃÊì Èå ÇáÑÓæá. æåäÇß ÂíÉ ÃÎÑì ÊÞæá (æáæ äÒáäÇå Úáì ÈÚÖ ÇáÃÚÌãíä ÝÞÑÃå Úáíåã ãÇ ßÇäæÇ Èå ãÄãäíä) (ÇáÔÚÑÇÁ 198-199). Ýáæ ÃäÒá Çááå ÇáÞÑÂä ÈÇááÛÉ ÇáÚÑÈíÉ Úáì ÇáÃÚÌãíä áãÇ Ýåãæå æáãÇ ÂãäæÇ Èå. æáßä ÑÛã Ðáß íÊÌÇåá ÇáÝÞåÇÁ åÇÊíä ÇáÂíÊíä. ÑÈãÇ áÃäåãÇ ãßíÊÇä¡ æÇáãßí íäÓÎå ÇáãÏäí.
ÃãÇ ÇáãÔßáÉ ÇáËÇäíÉ¡ Ãí ÚÈÇÏÉ ÇáÞÑÂä¡ ÝÅäåÇ ÃßÈÑ ãä Ãä äÍÕÑåÇ Ýí ãÞÇá ßåÐÇ¡ æáßä ÓæÝ ÃÍÇæá ÌåÏí. ÝãäÐ Ãä ÌÇÁ ãÍãÏ ÈÇáÞÑÂä ÇáÐí ßÇä íäÒá Úáíå¡ ßãÇ ÞÇáæÇ¡ ßá ËáÇË Ãæ ÃÑÈÚ ÂíÇÊ ãÚ ÈÚÖ¡ æáÐáß ÇÓÊÛÑÞ äÒæá ÓæÑÉ ÇáäÓÇÁ ÓÊÉ ÃÔåÑ¡ æÓæÑÉ ÈÑÇÁÉ äÒáÊ Úáì ÓäæÇÊ¡ ßãÇ íÞæá ÇáÓíæØí¡ ÇÞÊäÚ ÃÊÈÇÚå ÈÃä ÇáÂíÇÊ åí ßáÇã Çááå ÇáÐí äØÞ Èå¡ æÞÏ ÃÎÑÌ ÇáØÈÑÇäí ãä ÍÏíË ÇáäæÇÓ Èä ÓãÚÇä¡ ãÑÝæÚÇð: (ÅÐÇ Êßáã Çááå ÈÇáæÍí ÃÎÐÊ ÇáÓãÇÁ ÑÌÝÉ ÔÏíÏÉ ãä ÎæÝ Çááå ÝÅÐÇ ÓãÚ ÈÐáß Ãåá ÇáÓãÇÁ ÕÚÞæÇ æÎÑæÇ ÓÌÏÇð Ýíßæä Ãæáåã ÈÑÝÚ ÑÃÓå ÌÈÑíá ÝíäÊåí Èå ÍíË ÃãÑþ.þ) ÝÃåá ÇáÓãÇÁ áÇ ÈÏ Ãäåã ÞÏ ÕõÚÞæÇ ÂáÇÝ ÇáãÑÇÊ áÃä ÇáÊäÒíá ÇÓÊãÑ Úáì ãÏì ËáÇË æÚÔÑíä ÓäÉð. æãÇ ÏÇã ÇáÃãÑ ßÐáß ÝáÇ ÈÏ áÃåá ÇáÃÑÖ ãä Ãä íÞÏÓæÇ åÐÇ ÇáÞÑÂä. æáÐáß ÇÚÊÈÑ ÇáÝÞåÇÁ ÍÊì ãÌÑÏ ÇáÓÄÇá: åá ÇáÞÑÂä ßáÇã Çááå¡ ßÝÑÇõ. íÞæá ÇÈä ÍÒã ÇáÃäÏáÓí Ýí ßÊÇÈ (Çáãáá æÇáäÍá) (ÝÅä ÓÃá ÓÇÆá Úä ÇááÝÙ ÈÇáÞÑÂä ÞáäÇ áå ÓÄÇáß åÐÇ íÞÊÖí Ãä ÇááÝÙ ÇáãÓãæÚ åæ ÛíÑ ÇáÞÑÂä æåÐÇ ÈÇØá Èá ÇááÝÙ ÇáãÓãæÚ åæ ÇáÞÑÂä äÝÓå æåæ ßáÇã Çááå ÚÒ æÌá äÝÓå ßãÇ ÞÇá ÊÚÇáìþ:þ þ"þ ÍÊì íÓãÚ ßáÇã Çááå þ"þ) ÇäÊåì. ÝÅÐÇð áÇ ãÌÇá Ýí ÇáÊÔßíß ÈÃä ÇáÞÑÂä ßáÇã Çááå ÇáÐí äØÞ Èå¡ æÚáíå áÇ ÈÏ Ãä äÞÏÓå æäÚÈÏå. æáÐáß Ýí ÓäÉ ÃÑÈÚ æËáÇËíä æãÇÆÊíä åÌÑíÉ äåì ÇáãÊæßá Úä ÇáßáÇã Ýí ÇáÞÑÇä¡ æÃÕÈÍ ÇáÞÑÂä ãä æÞÊåÇ¡ ãËá Çááå ÊãÇãÇð¡ ÛíÑ ãÎáæÞ.
æãäÐ Ðáß ÇáÊÇÑíÎ ßÑøÓ ÇáÝÞåÇÁ æÇáãÝÓÑæä ßá æÞÊåã Ýí ÇÎÊÑÇÚ æÏÑÓ Úáæã ÇáÞÑÂä¡ æÊÝÓíÑå ÊÝÓíÑÇð íÚØí ÇáßáãÇÊ ÇáÚÑÈíÉ ãÚÇäí ÛíÑ ÇáÊí ÃÚØÇåÇ ÅíÇåÇ ÃåáåÇ ÞÈá Ãä íäÒá ÇáÞÑÂä. æãÚ Ãä ÇáÞÑÂä íÞæá (æãÇ íÚáã ÊÃæíáå ÅáÇ Çááå) äÌÏ ÇáãÝÓÑíä ÞÏ ÔØÍæÇ æäØÍæÇ æÃÊæÇ ÈÍÑßÇÊ ÈåáæÇäíÉ ÓãæåÇ ÊÃæíáÇð áíÎÑÌæÇ ÈåÇ ãä ãÃÒÞ ÇáÊäÇÞÖ Ýí ÇáÞÑÂä. æãäåã ãä íÄãä ÅíãÇäÇð ãØáÞÇð Ãäå áÇ íæÌÏ ÊäÇÞÖ Ýí ÇáÞÑÂä¡ ãËá ÇÈä ÍÒã ÇáÃäÏáÓí ÇáÐí ÞÇá (æÈÇáÖÑæÑÉ äÏÑí Ãä ßáÇã Çááå ÚÒ æÌá áÇ íÊäÇÞÖ). æÈÇáÊÇáí ÃÕÈÍ ßáÇã Çááå åÐÇ ãÞÏÓÇð¡ ÝÚÈÏæå áÃäå ãáãæÓ áåã æÇááå ÈÚíÏñ Ýí ÇáÓãæÇÊ ÇáÚáÇ¡ ÊãÇãÇð ßãÇ ÚÈÏ ÇáÚÑÈ ÇáÃÕäÇã ÇáÊí ßÇäÊ æÓíáÊåã ááå.. æÚäÏãÇ äÞÏÓ ÔíÆÇð íÕÈÍ åÐÇ ÇáÔíÁ ÝæÞ ÇáäÞÏ æÇáÊãÍíÕ æíäÍÕÑ ÏæÑäÇ Ýí ÊãÌíÏå æÊÈíÇä ÇááÂáÆ ÇáãÎÊÈÆÉ ÏÇÎáå. æáÐáß ßÑÓ ÇáÝÞåÇÁ ãÇ íÑÈæ Úáì ÃáÝ ÓäÉ ãä ÊÇÑíÎäÇ Ýí ÅÙåÇÑ Êáß ÇááÂáÆ Ýí ÍÑæÝ æßáãÇÊ æÂíÇÊ ÇáÞÑÂä ÇáãÌíÏ. æÈÚÏ Ãä ÃÍÕæÇ ßá ÇáÍÑæÝ¡ æÖÚæÇ ÞÑÂäåã Ýí ÇáãÊÍÝ ÇáÚÞáí ÇáÐí ßÇä ÞÏ ÈÑÒ Åáì ÍíÒ ÇáæÌæÏ Ýí ÇáÞÑä ÇáÓÇÈÚ ÇáãíáÇÏí ÚäÏãÇ ßÊÈ ÒíÏ Èä ËÇÈÊ æÝÑÞÊå ÔÈå ÇáÃãíÉ ÇáÞÑÂä. ÝÒíÏ æÌãÇÚÊå ßÇäæÇ áÇ íÚÑÝæä ÇáåÌÇÁ ßãÇ äÚÑÝå ÇáÂä æáÐáß ßÊÈæÇ ÈÚÖ ßáãÇÊ ÇáÞÑÂä ÈÇáØÑíÞÉ ÇáÊí ÚÑÝæåÇ æÞÊåÇ¡ ÝßÊÈæÇ ãËáÇð (æÌÇíÁ) ÈÏá (æÌíÁ) æ (ÝÓÆá) ÈÏá (ÝÇÓÃá) æ (ãÊßÆÇð) ÈÏá (ãÊßÃ) æ (äÈÄÇ) ÈÏá (äÈÃ) æåßÐÇ ÏæÇáíß. æÈãÇ Ãä ÇáÞÑÂä¡ ÍÓÈ ÒÚãåã¡ åæ ßáÇã Çááå ÝáÇ íãßä ÊÛííÑ Ãí ÔíÁ Èå. æÑÛã Ãäåã áã íÞæáæÇ Åä Çááå ÞÏ ÎØ ÇáÞÑÂä ÈíÏå Ýí ÇáãÕÇÍÝ¡ ßãÇ ÎØ ÃáæÇÍ ãæÓì¡ ÅáÇ Ãäåã ÚÇÑÖæÇ æÇãÊäÚæÇ Úä ßÊÇÈÉ ÇáãÕÇÍÝ ÈÇáåÌÇÁ ÇáÍÏíË áÃä ãÕÍÝ ÚËãÇä æÇáÑÓã ÇáÚËãÇäí ÃÕÈÍ ãÞÏÓÇð áÇ íÌæÒ ÇáãÓÇÓ Èå. æáæáÇ ÕÑÇãÉ ÇáÍÌÇÌ Èä íæÓÝ æÎáíÝÉ ÇáãÄãäíä ÚÈÏ Çáãáß Èä ãÑæÇä áÙá ÇáãÕÍÝ ÈÏæä äÞÇØ æÈÏæä ÚáÇãÇÊ ÇáÇÚÑÇÈ ÇáãÚÑæÝÉ.
æÈÚÏ Ãä ÃÍÕæÇ ÍÑæÝ æÂíÇÊ ÇáÞÑÂä¡ ÃÚØæÇ ÇáÞÑÂä äÝÓå ÎãÓíä ÇÓãÇð¡ æÞÇáæÇ (ÅäãÇ Óãí ÞÑÂäÇð áßæäå ÌãÚ ËãÑÇÊ ÇáßÊÈ ÇáÓÇáÝÉ ÇáãäÒáÉþ.þ æÞíá áÃäå ÌãÚ ÃäæÇÚ ÇáÚáæã ßáåÇþ.þ æÍßì ÞØÑÈ ÞæáÇðþ:þ Åäå Óãì ÞÑÂäÇð áÃä ÇáÞÇÑÆ íÙåÑå æíÈíäå ãä Ýíå ÃÎÐÇð ãä Þæá ÇáÚÑÈ ãÇ ÞÑÃÊ ÇáäÇÞÉ ÓáÇð ÞØþ:þ Ãí ãÇ ÑãÊ ÈæáÏþ:þ Ãí ãÇ ÃÓÞØÊ æáÏÇðþ:þ Ãí ãÇ ÍãáÊ ÞØ. æÇáÞÑÂä íáÞØå ÇáÞÇÑÆ ãä Ýíå æíáÞíå ÝÓãí ÞÑÂäÇðþ.þ æãä ÃÓãÇÆå: ÇáÝÑÞÇä¡ ÇáäæÑ¡ ÇáåÏì¡ ÇáÔÝÇÁ¡ ÇáÐßÑ¡ ÇáÍßãÉ¡ ÇáÍßíã¡ Çáãåíãä¡ ÇáÍÈá¡ ÇáÕÑÇØ¡ ÇáãËÇäí¡ ÇáÑæÍ¡ ÇáãÌíÏ¡ ÃáÎ) (ÇáÅÊÞÇä Ýí Úáæã ÇáÞÑÂä ááÓíæØí). æäáÇÍÙ åäÇ Ãä ÈÚÖ ÃÓãÇÁ ÇáÞÑÂä åí äÝÓåÇ ÃÓãÇÁ Çááå ÇáÍÓäì. ÝÈãÇ Ãäåã ÃÚØæÇ Çááå ÊÓÚÉ æÊÓÚíä ÇÓãÇð ÝáÇ ÈÏ Ãä íÚØæÇ ßáÇãå ÎãÓíä ÇÓãÇð.
Ëã ÈÚÏ Ðáß ÃÚØæÇ ÈÚÖ ÇáÓæÑ ÚÏÏÇð ãä ÇáÃÓãÇÁ íÝæÞ ÚÏÏ ÂíÇÊ ÇáÓæÑÉ. ÝãËáÇð ÓæÑÉ ÇáÝÇÊÍÉ¡ ÞÇá ÚäåÇ ÇáÓíæØí (æÞÏ æÞÝÊõ áåÇ Úáì äíÝ æÚÔÑíä ÇÓãÇð æÐáß íÏá Úáì ÔÑÝåÇ ÝÅä ßËÑÉ ÇáÃÓãÇÁ ÏÇáÉ Úáì ÔÑÝ ÇáãÓãì.) ÇäÊåì. ßá åÐÇ ÇáÔÑÝ æåã áã íÊÝÞæÇ ÍÊì Úáì ÚÏÏ ÂíÇÊåÇ æáÇ ãßÇä äÒæáåÇ. Ýãäåã ãä ÞÇá ÅäåÇ äÒáÊ ÈãßÉ¡ æÈÚÖåã ÞÇá ÈÇáãÏíäÉ¡ æÞÇá ÂÎÑæä ÅäåÇ äÒáÊ ãÑÊíä: ãÑÉ ÈãßÉ æãÑÉ ÈÇáãÏíäÉ (ÑÈãÇ áã íßä Çááå íËÞ ÈÐÇßÑÉ ÚÑÈ ãßÉ ÝÃäÒá ÇáÓæÑÉ ÈÇáãÏíäÉ ßÐáß).
Ëã ÊÝÑÛæÇ ÈÚÏ Ðáß Åáì áÛÉ ÇáÞÑÂä æÃáÝæÇ ÝíåÇ ãÆÇÊ ÇáßÊÈ. íÞæá ÃÈæ ÈßÑ ÇáæÇÓØí Ýí ßÊÇÈå (ÇáÅÑÔÇÏ Ýí ÇáÞÑÇÁÇÊ ÇáÚÔÑþ):þ (Ýí ÇáÞÑÂä ãä ÇááÛÇÊ ÎãÓæä áÛÉ.) ÇäÊåì. íÞæáæä åÐÇ ÑÛã Ãä ÕÑíÍ ÇáÞÑÂä íÞæá áãÍãÏ: (ÝÅäãÇ íÓÑäÇå ÈáÓÇäß áÊÈÔÑ Èå ÇáãÊÞíä æÊäÐÑ Èå ÞæãÇð áÏÇ) (ãÑíã 97). æíÞæá ßÐáß (ÝÅäãÇ íÓÑäÇå ÈáÓÇäß áÚáåã íÊÐßÑæä) (ÇáÏÎÇä 58). æäÍä äÚÑÝ Ãä ÇáäÈí ßÇä ãä ÞÑíÔ¡ æÚäÏãÇ ÃãÑ ÚËãÇä ÒíÏ Èä ËÇÈÊ Ãä íÌãÚ ÇáÞÑÂä¡ ÞÇá áå (Åä ÇÎÊáÝÊã Ýí ÔíÁ ÝÇßÊÈæå ÈáÛÉ ÞÑíÔ ÝÅäå äÒá ÈáÛÊåã). æáßä ãÚ Ðáß ÞÇáæÇ Åäø Èå ÎãÓíä áÛÉ¡ ÍÊì íÒíÏæÇ ãä åÇáÊå æÊÝÎíãå. ÝßËÑÉ ÇáÃÓãÇÁ¡ ßãÇ ÞÇáæÇ¡ æßËÑÉ ÇááÛÇÊ ÊÒíÏ ãä ÔÑÝ ÇáãÓãì.
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Ýåá ÈÚÏ åÐÇ íÔß ÃÍÏ Ýí Ãä ÇáãÓáãíä æËäíæä¿ Ýåã Ýí ÇáÈÏÁ ÃáåæÇ ÑÓæáåã æÌÚáæå ãÚÕæãÇð æÌÚáæÇ ÝÖáÇÊå ÔÝÇÁð ááÃãÑÇÖ¡ æÍÏíËå íäÓÎ ÇáÞÑÂä. Ëã ÌÚáæÇ ÕÍÇÈÊå ßÐáß ãÚÕæãíä æíõãäÚ ÑÓãåã æäÞÏåã. Ëã ÚÈÏæÇ ÇáÃæáíÇÁ Ýí ÇáÖÑÇÆÍ æÇáÞÈÇÈ¡ æÇáÃä ÃÕÈÍæÇ íÚÈÏæä ÇáãÕÍÝ. íÇáåÇ ãä ÌÇåáíÉ!
Everybody who just uses a bit of common sense should realize utleast now and today in the year 2007 that there is neither a god nor is there something like a celestial being.
we know, that Echnaton was the first to introduce the monotheismus by which Aton, the Sun was the almighty power. All following religions, islam,christianity and Judaism copied the same pattern. Abraham, Noah, Jesus or Muhammad all allegedly received their info through the rays of the sun or in similar a way. well a sms is much convenient.
The gibberish regarding god is realy beyond all bearing but I must say it makes sense when you want to take control over a whole society. Today its not easy to mobilise easily a number of armed people in a modern and sophisticated socity to fight for a religion, but in countries were people still live in the middle ages it is so easily. The fact that islam,christianity and Judaism all were outspread forcebly shows that there were political, and economical intrests and nothing else.
Alot of people also here in the sdb claim to have the better or the true religion. They suffer under inferiority complex. His or her personality cann´t exsist without having support from a thinker who thought for him or her.
Muhammad, Jesus or other so called prophets were natural orators like, kenedy or ghandi they could pusuade people too.
Most people in Europe know that the Bilble was not written in some days and there are lots of manipulations and that the New Testament (NT) and (OT) are full of contradictions summerised in over hunderds of years to a book called bibel .
But what makes me crazy is that moslems say the koran is incorrigible and irreformable. Moslems say god cann´t make mistakes and these are gods words.
OK! maybe we can find a compromise I agree that god makes no mistakes but can we agree to the fact that human beings can cause mistakes and imperfection and that the quys who took the piece of coal or whatever and wrote gods words to the ground made silly mistakes and didn´t actually write what god said.
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:roll:
Everybody who just uses a bit of common sense should realize utleast now and today in the year 2007 that there is neither a god nor is there something like a celestial being.
we know, that Echnaton was the first to introduce the monotheismus by which Aton, the Sun was the almighty power. All following religions, islam,christianity and Judaism copied the same pattern. Abraham, Noah, Jesus or Muhammad all allegedly received their info through the rays of the sun or in similar a way. well a sms is much convenient.
The gibberish regarding god is realy beyond all bearing but I must say it makes sense when you want to take control over a whole society. Today its not easy to mobilise easily a number of armed people in a modern and sophisticated socity to fight for a religion, but in countries were people still live in the middle ages it is so easily. The fact that islam,christianity and Judaism all were outspread forcebly shows that there were political, and economical intrests and nothing else.
Alot of people also here in the sdb claim to have the better or the true religion. They suffer under inferiority complex. His or her personality cann´t exsist without having support from a thinker who thought for him or her.
Muhammad, Jesus or other so called prophets were natural orators like, kenedy or ghandi they could pusuade people too.
Most people in Europe know that the Bilble was not written in some days and there are lots of manipulations and that the New Testament (NT) and (OT) are full of contradictions summerised in over hunderds of years to a book called bibel .
But what makes me crazy is that moslems say the koran is incorrigible and irreformable. Moslems say god cann´t make mistakes and these are gods words.
OK! maybe we can find a compromise I agree that god makes no mistakes but can we agree to the fact that human beings can cause mistakes and imperfection and that the quys who took the piece of coal or whatever and wrote gods words to the ground made silly mistakes and didn´t actually write what god said.
Moller>>> can i ask you one question:
1- From where did the enery required for the big bang came from? remind you Energy canot be created nor destroyed
ÇáÇÎ / ÍáÝÇæí ÓáÇã
åá ÈÑÖæÇ Ýí ÇáãÞÇÈá ÊÓÊØíÚ Çä ÊÞäÚäí ÈÇä ÓíÏäÇ ãÍãÏ ÇáÝ åÐÇ ÇáÞÑÂä æßíÝ ÇÓÊØÇÚ Çä íáã Èßá åÐå ÇáÓíÑ æÇáãÚáæãÇÊ æÇáÞÕÕ æ ÇáÇÍÏÇË Ü Ü åäÇáß ãä ÇÏÚí ÇäåÇ ÂíÇÊ ÔíØÇäíÉ åá ÇäÊ ãÞÊäÚ ÈÐáß Ü Ü æÇÐÇ ßÇä ÛíÑ Ðáß -- ÝßíÝ ÊÝÓíÑ äÒæá(ÊÃáíÝ) ÇáÞÑÂä Úáí ÍÓÈ Ýåãß æÑÄíÊß Ü Ü Ü
ãÚ ÊÍíÇÊí Ü Ü Ü Ü Ü Ü
Muhamad actually didn´t make up the stories. The fact that he even couldn´t write and read is a further prove. He was able to pursuade people to a movement.
I don´t want to go into details regarding god because we´ll not come to a consense but more importnat is if those religious books are man made or not.
Muhammad didn´t gather all these information from God, information given in the Koran were already existent. Regarding astronomie, biologie or other scientific fields the mideast people were indeed very expierenced (to their time) and had cultural affiliation to the Roman, Indians, Chinese, Persians etc. Those people weren´t just living in huts and twiddling one's thumbs these were advanced civilization which means INFORMATION
If there were inexplainable phenomens illiterate persons believed a celestial being behind it -(till today). The Koran and other religious books do not state expressively how things realy work but describe observations. Most observations were made a thousand and more years before Muhammads time.
Someone asked about the Big Bang and the source it received its energy from. Well can somebody show me in the koran something relating to the big bang. Of course not. Why? Because Albert Einstein published his general relativity in 1915. The Big Bang was not a conclusion due to an observation it is a derivation. The point of start can not be physically proven.
Every phenomen discribed in the koran was already acquainted or was discovered or observed to that time. The Koran describes in an ambiguous way that the earth is revolved by day and night. Eratosthenes a greek mathematician, geographer knew that before Muhammed because he lived 276 BC - 194 BC i.e more than 1000 years before muhammad. He even calculated the equatorial circumference. Amazing! what?
The Koran describes the creation of live (embryo). Waw! the Pharaos had operating rooms and carried out surgeries to the brain why shouldn´t the people in the mideast, 1000 years later find out how live
ÇÚæÐ ÈÇ ááå
åÐÇ Ìåá ãÑßÈ, Çááå íåÏíßã
I´m so glad not to live is these countries which are so backwarded. I´m profoundly convinced that to the time of Muhammad in some areas in the mideast people were much more open minded.
Muhamad actually didn´t make up the stories. The fact that he even couldn´t write and read is a further prove. He was able to pursuade people to a movement.
I don´t want to go into details regarding god because we´ll not come to a consense but more importnat is if those religious books are man made or not.
Muhammad didn´t gather all these information from God, information given in the Koran were already existent. Regarding astronomie, biologie or other scientific fields the mideast people were indeed very expierenced (to their time) and had cultural affiliation to the Roman, Indians, Chinese, Persians etc. Those people weren´t just living in huts and twiddling one's thumbs these were advanced civilization which means INFORMATION
If there were inexplainable phenomens illiterate persons believed a celestial being behind it -(till today). The Koran and other religious books do not state expressively how things realy work but describe observations. Most observations were made a thousand and more years before Muhammads time.
Someone asked about the Big Bang and the source it received its energy from. Well can somebody show me in the koran something relating to the big bang. Of course not. Why? Because Albert Einstein published his general relativity in 1915. The Big Bang was not a conclusion due to an observation it is a derivation. The point of start can not be physically proven.
Every phenomen discribed in the koran was already acquainted or was discovered or observed to that time. The Koran describes in an ambiguous way that the earth is revolved by day and night. Eratosthenes a greek mathematician, geographer knew that before Muhammed because he lived 276 BC - 194 BC i.e more than 1000 years before muhammad. He even calculated the equatorial circumference. Amazing! what?
The Koran describes the creation of live (embryo). Waw! the Pharaos had operating rooms and carried out surgeries to the brain why shouldn´t the people in the mideast, 1000 years later find out how live
Moller:
I belive you had failed to explain one thing, which is why the Quran did not make a mistake in any of the scitefic facts that it includes>>> and to remind you the quran has scitefic facts in many fields>>> is it not a strange thing the prophet mohamed gets all this information from the persians and the greeks and the romans>>> and put it in one book that has no mistiake in any thing not in science not in language not in history not in any thing and ask you nothing expecpt to worrsip One God and avoid worrsiping idols and createures >>> now you want to tell me that all of this was just a play by P.Mohd>>> why?! what will P.Mohd benfit from making it up???. come on!!!
Moller:
[SIZE=3]I belive you had failed to explain one thing, which is why the Quran did not make a mistake in any of the scitefic facts that it includes>>> and to remind you the quran has scitefic facts in many fields>>>
First to be clear Koran has few to zero to do with scientific. If Koran was scientific, scientists would have taken the book to their lectures. I from my side never used it in physic lectures.
is it not a strange thing the prophet mohamed gets all this information from the persians and the greeks and the romans>>> and put it in one book that has no mistiake in any thing not in science not in language not in history not in any thing and ask you nothing expecpt to worrsip One God and avoid worrsiping idols and createures >>>
If Mohammad got all information written in koran from allah then either mohammad missunderstood things or allah made a lot of mistakes.
The koran is full and full of errors and contradictions if I´ld start writting them from now it would take weeks till ending up a summry. here are some
Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 all clearly state that God created "the heavens and the earth" in six days.
Sura 41:9-12, the detailed description of the creation procedure, add up to eight days.
---------
Surah 20:90-100 says a Samaritan helped the Israelites build the golden calf, and it mooed after coming out of the fire.
The Golden Calf Samaritans did not exist as a people until at least 1000 years after the time of Moses and the Israelite exodus from Egypt.
--------------
Sura 54:19 - One day
How many days did Allah need to destroy the people of Aad?
Sura 41:16 & 69:6,7 - several days
-------------------
In Sura 41:30 and 57:21 there is said to be only one garden in Paradise.
How many garden's are there in paradise?
In Sura 18:31, 22:23, 25:33, and 78:32 there are many gardens in Paradise.
I can provide you with hundreds of contradictions if wish.
now you want to tell me that all of this was just a play by P.Mohd>>> why?! what will P.Mohd benfit from making it up???. come on!!!
Power! and nothing else! he came from a rich family and I assume he wanted to subjugate Qurraisch and the jews.
If you have any questions don´t hesitate.
Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 all clearly state that God created "the heavens and the earth" in six days.
Sura 41:9-12, the detailed description of the creation procedure, add up to eight days.
Greetings moller. I will answer this part and will try to get the rest later.
So you are saying that the Quran contradicts itself when saying he created all this in 6 days and the other verse states that they are 8 days.
ok let's read them again in arabic
verse 9 says:
Þõáú ÃóÆöäøóßõãú áóÊóßúÝõÑõæäó ÈöÇáøóÐöí ÎóáóÞó ÇáúÃóÑúÖó Ýöí íóæúãóíúäö æóÊóÌúÚóáõæäó áóåõ ÃóäÏóÇÏðÇ Ðóáößó ÑóÈøõ ÇáúÚóÇáóãöíäó
so far we have 2 days, then he continues
æóÌóÚóáó ÝöíåóÇ ÑóæóÇÓöíó ãöä ÝóæúÞöåóÇ æóÈóÇÑóßó ÝöíåóÇ æóÞóÏøóÑó ÝöíåóÇ ÃóÞúæóÇÊóåóÇ Ýöí ÃóÑúÈóÚóÉö ÃóíøóÇãò ÓóæóÇÁ áøöáÓøóÇÆöáöíäó
here is where seems to be the confusion. the verse follows the previous one. Allah is saying that the creation of earth plus its other attributes took him 4 days. That 4 adds up to the 2 we already counted earlie. So Allah is saying that it also took him another 2 days to finish up the earth.
and the last verse reads
ÝóÞóÖóÇåõäøó ÓóÈúÚó ÓóãóÇæóÇÊò Ýöí íóæúãóíúäö æóÃóæúÍóì Ýöí ßõáøö ÓóãóÇÁ ÃóãúÑóåóÇ æóÒóíøóäøóÇ ÇáÓøóãóÇÁ ÇáÏøõäúíóÇ ÈöãóÕóÇÈöíÍó æóÍöÝúÙðÇ Ðóáößó ÊóÞúÏöíÑõ ÇáúÚóÒöíÒö ÇáúÚóáöíãö
lets do the math now 4 days to create the earth mountains...etc plus another 2 days to create the heavens gives a total of 6 days.
But if you read it as 2 + 4 + 2 this equals to 8
Hope I made it clear.
Surah 20:90-100 says a Samaritan helped the Israelites build the golden calf, and it mooed after coming out of the fire.
The Golden Calf Samaritans did not exist as a people until at least 1000 years after the time of Moses and the Israelite exodus from Egypt.
The ayah reads
ÞóÇáó ÝóãóÇ ÎóØúÈõßó íóÇ ÓóÇãöÑöí
This is a name for a person and doesnt by any chance refer to the Samaritans. The Samri'e was a Jewish person among those who followed Moses in the exodus. He is the one who convinced the Israelites to cast/build the golden calf.
He even replied back to Moses by saying
ÞóÇáó ÈóÕõÑúÊõ ÈöãóÇ áóãú íóÈúÕõÑõæÇ Èöåö ÝóÞóÈóÖúÊõ ÞóÈúÖóÉð ãøöäú ÃóËóÑö ÇáÑøóÓõæáö ÝóäóÈóÐúÊõåóÇ æóßóÐóáößó ÓóæøóáóÊú áöí äóÝúÓöí
Sura 54:19 - One day
How many days did Allah need to destroy the people of Aad?
Sura 41:16 & 69:6,7 - several days
Sura 54:19 reads
ÅöäøóÇ ÃóÑúÓóáúäóÇ Úóáóíúåöãú ÑöíÍðÇ ÕóÑúÕóÑðÇ Ýöí íóæúãö äóÍúÓò ãøõÓúÊóãöÑøò
not sure how good you are in Arabic but look the word following the word youm/day. It read Nahsin
ãßÓæÑå
Ýì íæã äÍÓ
Allah is saying that the sent the storm/hurricane on a bad day. How about the last Iraqi war? It started on one day and continued for some time (days/weeks/months)
This verse is simply talking about that day when it had all started. Then Sura 41:16 completes the whole picture.
ÝóÃóÑúÓóáúäóÇ Úóáóíúåöãú ÑöíÍðÇ ÕóÑúÕóÑðÇ Ýöí ÃóíøóÇãò äøóÍöÓóÇÊò áøöäõÐöíÞóåõãú ÚóÐóÇÈó ÇáúÎöÒúíö Ýöí ÇáúÍóíóÇÉö ÇáÏøõäúíóÇ æóáóÚóÐóÇÈõ ÇáúÂÎöÑóÉö ÃóÎúÒóì æóåõãú áóÇ íõäÕóÑõæäó
and last but not least, the number of gardens. I know there are many Janas each with its own pluses. one for martyrs one for prophets and so on. So I say there are more than one Jannah. And to make some sense here lets say this group of people will be dispatched to Jannah X and those to Jannah Y and so on
so when Allah says
Åöäøó ÇáøóÐöíäó ÞóÇáõæÇ ÑóÈøõäóÇ Çááøóåõ Ëõãøó ÇÓúÊóÞóÇãõæÇ ÊóÊóäóÒøóáõ Úóáóíúåöãõ ÇáúãóáóÇÆößóÉõ ÃóáøóÇ ÊóÎóÇÝõæÇ æóáóÇ ÊóÍúÒóäõæÇ æóÃóÈúÔöÑõæÇ ÈöÇáúÌóäøóÉö ÇáøóÊöí ßõäÊõãú ÊõæÚóÏõæäó
it means that if you do such and such, you will be rewarded to one of the Jannahs that he promises.
Hope I make them all clear and please feel free to ask moller :)
íÏíß ÇáÚÇÝíÉ WD..
! ÛíÇÙ áßä ãáæáÉ Ïå
and last but not least, the number of gardens. I know there are many Janas each with its own pluses. one for martyrs one for prophets and so on. So I say there are more than one Jannah. And to make some sense here lets say this group of people will be dispatched to Jannah X and those to Jannah Y and so on
so when Allah says
Åöäøó ÇáøóÐöíäó ÞóÇáõæÇ ÑóÈøõäóÇ Çááøóåõ Ëõãøó ÇÓúÊóÞóÇãõæÇ ÊóÊóäóÒøóáõ Úóáóíúåöãõ ÇáúãóáóÇÆößóÉõ ÃóáøóÇ ÊóÎóÇÝõæÇ æóáóÇ ÊóÍúÒóäõæÇ æóÃóÈúÔöÑõæÇ ÈöÇáúÌóäøóÉö ÇáøóÊöí ßõäÊõãú ÊõæÚóÏõæäó
it means that if you do such and such, you will be rewarded to one of the Jannahs that he promises.
Hope I make them all clear and please feel free to ask moller :)
Greetings Walad da
You jump from garden to paradise. we are talking about Gardens within paradise. thanks for your contributions but for sure you coudn´t convince me at all.
Last year I saw an islamic program in the sudanese channel it was an egyptian production. The speaker had a superb voice with echo and reverberation effect (often used in islamic or christian brain washing programs) The whole aim of the program was to underline the cognitions made 1400years from today and that it was impossible to discover or prove several facts without moden science of today.
I mentioned already above that Eratosthenes proved that the earth is a globe. But the christians and moslems till 1500 a.d believed or had to believe it was a plate.
In the islamic program was said there are 7 heavens mentioned in the koran and these are exactly the seven spheres we know today. Wau! now in the koran is mentioned that the stars are between the heavens and the earth. Im not sure if there are any stars between the Ionosphere and Troposphere.
thanks
Al-Qur'an (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur%27an) (Islamic Scripture, Al-Kitab (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Al-Kitab&action=edit), 'the Book') The very words of God sent to Muhammad by Divine Revelation through Gabriel, just like Moses and Jesus recieved Divine Revelation before him. The Quran is not the saying and acts of the Prophet, rather what God said to him and to humanity.
Al-Hadith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith) (sayings and doings of Prophet Muhammad) Hadith are not divine, and are not considered scripture. They are historical recordings collected some 200 to 250 years after Prophet Muhammad died, are admitted to be prone to error, corruption or misinterpretation.
Nahj al Balagha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahj_al_Balagha) (saying and doing of Hazrat Ali (a.s)) are regarded as history and wisdom rather than divine text and used mainly by Shia Muslims.
The Qur'ān (Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): ÇáÞÑÂä ýal-qur’ān, literally "the recitation"; also called al-qur’ān al-karīm "The Noble Qur'ān";
also transliterated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_transliteration) as Quran, Koran, and Al-Quran), is the central religious text (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_text) of Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam). Muslims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim) believe the Qur'ān, in its original Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic),
to be the literal word of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_concept_of_God)
that was revealed to Muhammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad) over a period of twenty-three yearsuntil
his death, and believe it to be God's final revelation
to humanity. Muslims regard the Qur'ān as a continuation
to other divine messages that have started with those revealed
to Adam - the first prophet - and including Suhuf-i-Ibrahim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suhuf-i-Ibrahim) (Scrolls of Abraham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham)/Ibrahim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrahim)), the Tawrat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawrat) (Torah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah)), the Zabur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zabur) (Psalms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalms)),
and the Injil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injil) (Gospel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel)), in between.
The aforementioned books are recognized in the Qur'ān,
but directs Muslims to follow
the Qur'ān--the last and final message,
being completely untainted with God promising
to protect it: "Verily We: It is We Who have sent down
the Dhikr (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption)".
The Qur'anic verses were originally memorized
by Muhammad's companions as Muhammad recited them,
with some being written down by one or more companions
on whatever was at hand, from stones to pieces of bark.
The collection of the Qur'ān compilation
took place under the Caliph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliph) Abu Bakr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr),
this task being led by Zayd ibn Thabit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zayd_ibn_Thabit) Al-Ansari.
"The manuscript on which the Quran was collected,
remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him,
and then with 'Umar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar) till Allah took him unto Him,
and finally it remained with Hafsa bint Umar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafsa_bint_Umar)
ÞÇá ÊÚÇáí Ýí ÓæÑÉ íÓä
Ãæ áã íÑ ÇáÃäÓÇä ÃäÇ ÎáÞäÇå ãä äØÝÉ ÝÇÐÇ åæ ÎÕíã ãÈíä
ÝáÇ ÊÓÊÚÌáæÇ ÃíåÇ ÇáãÔßßæä ¡ ÝÍíÇÊßã ãåãÇ ØÇáÊ ÞÕíÑÉ
Shabatoot 21-Feb-07, 17:52 Everybody who just uses a bit of common sense should realize utleast now and today in the year 2007 that there is neither a god nor is there something like a celestial being.
we know, that Echnaton was the first to introduce the monotheismus by which Aton, the Sun was the almighty power. All following religions, islam,christianity and Judaism copied the same pattern. Abraham, Noah, Jesus or Muhammad all allegedly received their info through the rays of the sun or in similar a way. well a sms is much convenient.
The gibberish regarding god is realy beyond all bearing but I must say it makes sense when you want to take control over a whole society. Today its not easy to mobilise easily a number of armed people in a modern and sophisticated socity to fight for a religion, but in countries were people still live in the middle ages it is so easily. The fact that islam,christianity and Judaism all were outspread forcebly shows that there were political, and economical intrests and nothing else.
Alot of people also here in the sdb claim to have the better or the true religion. They suffer under inferiority complex. His or her personality cann´t exsist without having support from a thinker who thought for him or her.
Muhammad, Jesus or other so called prophets were natural orators like, kenedy or ghandi they could pusuade people too.
Most people in Europe know that the Bilble was not written in some days and there are lots of manipulations and that the New Testament (NT) and (OT) are full of contradictions summerised in over hunderds of years to a book called bibel .
But what makes me crazy is that moslems say the koran is incorrigible and irreformable. Moslems say god cann´t make mistakes and these are gods words.
OK! maybe we can find a compromise I agree that god makes no mistakes but can we agree to the fact that human beings can cause mistakes and imperfection and that the quys who took the piece of coal or whatever and wrote gods words to the ground made silly mistakes and didn´t actually write what god said.
íÇ ÓÇÊÑ íÇ ÑÈ
ÞÇá ÊÚÇáí Ýí ÓæÑÉ íÓä
Ãæ áã íÑ ÇáÃäÓÇä ÃäÇ ÎáÞäÇå ãä äØÝÉ ÝÇÐÇ åæ ÎÕíã ãÈíä
ÝáÇ ÊÓÊÚÌáæÇ ÃíåÇ ÇáãÔßßæä ¡ ÝÍíÇÊßã ãåãÇ ØÇáÊ ÞÕíÑÉ
Where in this sentence is the prove that there is a cereator of the universe?? I want to see a single and clear prove that allah created the univers. It is said the koran is clear without ambiguity. ok! then why do "islamic scientists" discuss over hundreds of years and interpretation are changed? Why if it is sooo clear?
The koran says don´t fear fear satan fear me(Allah). If you read the Koran you will find violence over violence. It is clear that the strategy demads the obedience of man. The strategy ist carrot and a stick nothing else exactly what the USA and EU are doing with Iran at the moment. Why don´t the Iranians look in the Koran and find for a solution. Very simple they won´t´find any..
First to be clear Koran has few to zero to do with scientific. If Koran was scientific, scientists would have taken the book to their lectures. I from my side never used it in physic lectures.
If Mohammad got all information written in koran from allah then either mohammad missunderstood things or allah made a lot of mistakes.
The koran is full and full of errors and contradictions if I´ld start writting them from now it would take weeks till ending up a summry. here are some
Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 all clearly state that God created "the heavens and the earth" in six days.
Sura 41:9-12, the detailed description of the creation procedure, add up to eight days.
---------
Surah 20:90-100 says a Samaritan helped the Israelites build the golden calf, and it mooed after coming out of the fire.
The Golden Calf Samaritans did not exist as a people until at least 1000 years after the time of Moses and the Israelite exodus from Egypt.
--------------
Sura 54:19 - One day
How many days did Allah need to destroy the people of Aad?
Sura 41:16 & 69:6,7 - several days
-------------------
In Sura 41:30 and 57:21 there is said to be only one garden in Paradise.
How many garden's are there in paradise?
In Sura 18:31, 22:23, 25:33, and 78:32 there are many gardens in Paradise.
I can provide you with hundreds of contradictions if wish.
Power! and nothing else! he came from a rich family and I assume he wanted to subjugate Qurraisch and the jews.
If you have any questions don´t hesitate.
Moller: I expected you to say that Sceintific facts in the Quran are not all correct>>>>>ok let us see
Moller do you know this person:
http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=tbn:kWMj_tGsl073fM:http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Science/BUCAILLE.JPG
Let me help you he is:
Dr. T.V.N. Persaud
Professor of Anatomy and Head of the Department of Anatomy, and a Professor of Pediatrics and Child Health, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada>>>> do you know what he said >> Focus:
"It seems to me that Muhammad was a very ordinary man. He could not read or write. In fact, he was illiterate. We are talking about fourteen hundred years ago. You have someone who was illiterate making profound pronouncements and statements and that are amazingly accurate about scientific nature. I personally cannot see how this could be a mere chance There are too many accuracies and, like Dr. Moore,I have no difficulty in my mind in concerning that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which led him to these statements."
Please don't tell me you understand better than Dr. T.V.N. Persaud
The Koran Predicted the Speed of Light? Not Really.
Richard Carrier
There is no end to the strange things Muslim Fundies will claim. A new one is in A New Astronomical Quranic Method for The Determination Of The Greatest Speed Cby Dr. Mansour Hassab-Elnaby. There are hundreds of bogus arguments like this on the web (or at least were when I wrote this). But one need only see how bogus one or two are to see it isn't worth bothering investigating any more (see, for example, my other essay: Cosmology and the Koran: A Response to Muslim Fundamentalists, 2001). I guess this is the shotgun strategy--make so many wild claims that skeptics couldn't possibly rebut them all for shear lack of time, and claim victory.
Someone has rebutted the speed of light argument already: see the simple Review by Dr. Arnold Neumaier of the Institute of Mathematics at the University of Vienna.
My own thoughts right away were fourfold:
(1) The first thing I noted is that it is based on the moon's orbit and earth's rotation--both of which are and have been slowing down for ages (a year was 400 days long 60 million years ago, for example, and the moon's orbit is enlarging and its velocity slowing, both due to gravitational friction between the two bodies: see Did the Earth rotate faster in the past? and Is the Moon moving away from the Earth?, by Dr. Sten Odenwald, 1997). Thus, the moon's and earth's speeds (and the circumference of the lunar orbit) were slightly different 1400 years ago than they are today. Thus, on what time in earth's history is this calculation supposed to be based? The Muslims making the argument use contemporary measures, rather than measures as extrapolated for 1 AH, the year they believe the Koran to have been dictated to Muhammad. But why use values for the year 2001, almost fourteen hundred years later? Where is that indicated in the Koran? So I got suspicious from the start...
(2) The second thing I noticed is that the verse in the Koran that is being used is actually a paraphrase of the Hebrew Bible (Ps 90:4) and the New Testament (2 Pe 3:8), and is thus not unique to the Koran at all. In fact, in all ANE cultures "a thousand" was a standard word for "uncountable many," "a really, really lot a lot." In Greek, for example, chilia was so used; in Latin, milia. In Hebrew it is the same. Thus, from the cultural context it is hard to see this as any sort of precise measure. I would be far more impressed if the Koran said a day is equal to 1,023 and 2/3 years, or something like that, producing an absolutely exact result (at least as it would have been when the Koran was supposedly dictated--so Allah missed a glorious opportunity to give ideal mathematical proof of when the Koran was revealed...oh well, gods always seem to suck at logistics for some reason...I guess we are supposed to imagine Allah as a cosmic Homer Simpson).
(3) Third, nowhere does the Koran say anything about something crossing any particular distance in a thousand years. The verse that is so interpreted (32:5) only repeats that god is almighty and a day to him is a thousand years. At best the translation can be turned into a reference to a period of a thousand years over which the world shall ascend, but across what distance is not stated or even implied. So we are already skating on thin subjective ice as it is.
The actual verses read:
[32.4] Allah is He Who created the heavens and the earth and what is between them in six periods, and He mounted the throne (of authority); you have not besides Him any guardian or any intercessor, will you not then mind? [32.5] He regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth; then shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count.
There is no connection made here with the moon (which is never mentioned anywhere in book 32), or with any distance being crossed, and any hint of the idea of light is completely absent. If not for Dr. Hassab-Elnaby's fertile imagination, no one would ever think "the affair" meant "light." To the contrary, "the affair" clearly refers to the universe as a whole (i.e. everything "from the heaven to the earth," the object of the previous sentence) and "it shall ascend to Him" might at best refer to the apocalypse, though the phrase can be a colloquialism for "he reckons," at any rate it is anyone's guess how light "ascends" or how it is we are supposed to know that it is light that is doing the ascending, much less that it is to ascend exactly the distance of 12,000 lunar orbits. Indeed, as Dr. Neumaier observes, this reading entails that God is physically located one light day from earth! So much for his omnipresence. Maybe Islam is a religion inspired by pyramid-building aliens? Von Daniken, move over!
(4) Fourth, the Muslim author jigs the result by importing a bogus notion of heliocentric compensation. He makes it look real by inventing a fake connection to Einstein's "second postulate" of Special Relativity (linking the Special with the General Theory), which states that the Special Theory holds in the absence of gravity--so that in the presence of gravity transformation equations are needed. But nothing in Dr. Hassab-Elnaby's math equates to the strength of the sun's gravitational field, so he is clearly not employing any real transformation factor.
The equation Dr. Hassab-Elnaby defends is as follows:
C = 12,000 [lunar revolutions about the earth] x 3682.07 [average orbital velocity of the moon today in km/hr] x 0.89157 [compensation factor for heliocentric gravitation] x 655.71986 [length in hours of one complete lunar orbit transit today] / 86164.0906 seconds [one sidereal day on earth today] = 299792.5 km/s
The essential number, the only one that has no validity here but that is required for the result to come out as the speed of light, is the compensation factor. There is no basis whatever for introducing this. The calculation without it is entirely correct whether the system orbits the sun or not. Moreover, there is no logic in multiplying lunar velocity by the cosine (why the cosine? No answer) of the degrees of solar arc crossed by the earth in a lunar siderial month (why a month? No answer).
This bogus import was noted by Dr. Neumaier, who aptly called it "pure nonsense." He was also clever enough to catch the fact that if we have to account for that (for whatever reason), then we are also obligated to account for the sun-earth-moon system's revolution around the galactic center (and, I might add, the orbital motion of the milky way within the local cluster), but Dr. Hassab-Elnaby didn't think of this. Ooops!
In the end, what the Islamic Fundamentalists are doing is finding any string of numbers they can dig up that produce any number significant to modern science, and then claiming the Koran predicted modern science. But that is like saying, on account of amazing but contrived coincidences, that Elvis is the Son of God. Remember: all this started with nothing more than a commonplace phrase "a day is like a thousand years." From this Dr. Mansour Hassab-Elnaby deduces the speed of light! At the very best he might have claimed that there is an amazing coincidence between the distance crossed by the moon in a thousand lunar years, and the distance light crosses in a day, but the Koran actually failed to predict this, since it fails to state so simple a sentence as that, and never mentions light or, in that context, the moon. But he cannot even claim this, because the math doesn't work out anyway. He had to invent an arbitrary and thus bogus "cosine of a 27 degree arc" to get even this "amazing" result.
Homines quicquam credent. People will believe anything.
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Moller: I expected you to say that Sceintific facts in the Quran are not all correct>>>>>ok let us see
Moller do you know this person:
[IMG]http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=tbn:kWMj_tGsl073fM:http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Science/BUCAILLE.JPG
Please please read things before you come over and present things which have nothing to do with a prove.
First of all the moslem or at least those who want to spread their ideas have to prove what they affirm. We who do not believe in those so called holly books have not to prove anything. till the minute I haven´t seen any prove for the existence of Allah or something simillar. What you are doing is presenting a scientisit who holds the flame for a moslem community.
Saudis are spending millions of dollars to western scientists just to provide them with proves. what a disgrace and realy embarrassing.
Now read this text and please please tell me your opinion.
The Qur'an on Embryology
In 1982 Keith Moore, an anatomy professor at the University of Toronto, produced a textbook titled "The Developing Human, 3rd edition". In this book Moore states his astonishment at the way embryonic development is depicted in the Qur'an. Moore would go on to produce fourth and fifth editions of his textbook, as well as another book titled "Human Development as described in the Quran and Sunnah", all of which many Muslims cite with great pleasure. Moore and his Muslim supporters are referring to the following verse:
We placed him as sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed; Then We made the sperm into a clot of blood; then of that blood clot We made a lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be God, the best to create! (Quran 23:13-14)
Indeed, at first glance, this seems like a remarkable statement for a "7th century desert Arab" to make. However, upon closer study, one realizes that there is both explanation and error to this verse. First we must ask if this was an original theory, and second we must ask if it is correct.
Many people are amazed by the mention of sperm in this verse. This is nothing special. Since the beginning of time man has been aware of the "seed" that is released from the penis during sexual intercourse. The Bible, a text much older than the Qur'an, tells a story of a man who was struck down by God for "spilling his seed on the ground" (Genesis 38:9-10).
The entire study of human life as mentioned in the Qur'an is not original at all. While Muslims try to claim that Muhammad made these statements before scientists discovered them, they are wrong. Theories of the formation of a child inside the womb was put forth by Aristotle nearly 1,000 years before the Qur'an was written. In fact Aristotle correctly described the function of the umbilical cord, something not mentioned in the Qur'an, showing that earlier philosophers were aware of such things mentioned by Muhammad and more. Every mention of human development in the Qur'an is similar to Roman and Greek theories. Consider the following verse referring to sperm:
He is created from a drop (of sperm) emitted-- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs. (Qur'an 86:6-7)
Clearly this verse is incorrect, and clearly it has origins in earlier theories. First of all, for sperm to originate between the back and the ribs would mean that it comes from the kidneys! We now know that semen is produced in the testicles, but people in Muhammad's time did not know this. Eleven centuries before Muhammad, the Greek physician Hippocrates theorized that sperm passed through the kidneys into the penis. For centuries this was an accepted (and incorrect) belief of the origins of sperm.
There are those who claim Muhammad had no contact with Greeks or Romans. Pre-Islamic Arabia definitely had contact with Byzantium, Syria, Egypt, Persia, and Babylon. There were many Jews and Christians living in the area, and they were familiar with Greek or Roman philosophy. The Christians were connected to Rome. The Jews were connected to Babylon and Persia. It is easy to see how such theories regarding embryonic development may have reached Muhammad.
Finally, to touch back on the verses that spoke of the development of an unborn child, I will say they too are incorrect. The Qur'an stated that the blood clot was turned to bone and then God "clothed the bones with flesh" (Quran 23:13-14). It is scientific fact that living tissue forms first, and then bones grow at a later time, and continue to gain strength (by building calcium) for many years after birth. Therefore, this is one of many scientific inaccuracies in the Qur'an
Please please read things before you come over and present things which have nothing to do with a prove.
In 1982 Keith Moore, an anatomy professor at the University of Toronto, produced a textbook titled "The Developing Human, 3rd edition". In this book Moore states his astonishment at the way embryonic development is depicted in the Qur'an. Moore would go on to produce fourth and fifth editions of his textbook, as well as another book titled "Human Development as described in the Quran and Sunnah", all of which many Muslims cite with great pleasure. Moore and his Muslim supporters are referring to the following verse:
We placed him as sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed; Then We made the sperm into a clot of blood; then of that blood clot We made a lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be God, the best to create! (Quran 23:13-14)
Indeed, at first glance, this seems like a remarkable statement for a "7th century desert Arab" to make. However, upon closer study, one realizes that there is both explanation and error to this verse. First we must ask if this was an original theory, and second we must ask if it is correct.
Many people are amazed by the mention of sperm in this verse. This is nothing special. Since the beginning of time man has been aware of the "seed" that is released from the penis during sexual intercourse. The Bible, a text much older than the Qur'an, tells a story of a man who was struck down by God for "spilling his seed on the ground" (Genesis 38:9-10).Could say the reference who is the researcher here who gave this fact.
The entire study of human life as mentioned in the Qur'an is not original at all. While Muslims try to claim that Muhammad made these statements before scientists discovered them, they are wrong. Theories of the formation of a child inside the womb was put forth by Aristotle nearly 1,000 years before the Qur'an was written. In fact Aristotle correctly described the function of the umbilical cord, something not mentioned in the Qur'an, showing that earlier philosophers were aware of such things mentioned by Muhammad and more. Every mention of human development in the Qur'an is similar to Roman and Greek theories. Consider the following verse referring to sperm:Could say the reference who is the researcher here who gave this fact.
He is created from a drop (of sperm) emitted-- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs. (Qur'an 86:6-7)
Clearly this verse is incorrect, and clearly it has origins in earlier theories. First of all, for sperm to originate between the back and the ribs would mean that it comes from the kidneys! We now know that semen is produced in the testicles, but people in Muhammad's time did not know this. Eleven centuries before Muhammad, the Greek physician Hippocrates theorized that sperm passed through the kidneys into the penis. For centuries this was an accepted (and incorrect) belief of the origins of sperm.
There are those who claim Muhammad had no contact with Greeks or Romans. Pre-Islamic Arabia definitely had contact with Byzantium, Syria, Egypt, Persia, and Babylon. There were many Jews and Christians living in the area, and they were familiar with Greek or Roman philosophy. The Christians were connected to Rome. The Jews were connected to Babylon and Persia. It is easy to see how such theories regarding embryonic development may have reached Muhammad.
Finally, to touch back on the verses that spoke of the development of an unborn child, I will say they too are incorrect. The Qur'an stated that the blood clot was turned to bone and then God "clothed the bones with flesh" (Quran 23:13-14). It is scientific fact that living tissue forms first, and then bones grow at a later time, and continue to gain strength (by building calcium) for many years after birth. Therefore, this is one of many scientific inaccuracies in the Qur'an
Let us make it clear, I am not proffesor of biology to give you the proves and microscopic pictures and so on>>> are you taking all the effort of research of Dr. Moor and others and through it in the bin and wants us to belive in your rubbish >>>O ' common plz>>>
Mr. Moller: it is good to see you reply this fas and i don't understand why you are saying my reply nothing to do with the topic are you blind or something>>>i was showing sencere scientist who studied the scetific facts in the Quran and after that gave his opnion now i call this a very relvant thing:
Moller you are not a sencire person>>> you go to hatered web sites and bring the things which prove that the scetific things in the Quran are not correct>>> first of all when you discuss such topic be brave and face the truth>>> you are not reacting to the answers which we gave it to you in right way>>> but it seems that you want to get arround the truth and convince your self that this is not correct>>> before i answer you>> i want you to understnad something: first the sentific facts in the Quran are classfied into two things, first >> clear and direct scientific facts and second not direct scetific fact>>> the first one is one which need to be taken into consedration>> the second one: are the type of scientific facts that can explained into different ways becuse it is not very clear: example the 7 heavens>> some might say it is the 7 layers in the sky>>>but this can be incorrect effort>> the reason is because the scitific fact here it is not direct and clear>> now back to the topic>>you where talking about the Embrio stages and you were saying it is not correct while Dr. Moor says it is correct>>> you want me to belive you and not to belive a proffescor in biology who is not muslim>>> secondly as i said before>>> the amazing thing is not that the Romons had some discovers at that time>> this possible no problem>>> but the amazing thing is>> to have all this Scences in biology in history in sceience of earth and the fortelling like in the chapter of the al-Room with no mistakes >>> here is mirricle>> got it>>> now i want you to get for me the reference above ^
[COLOR=Red]Let us make it clear, I am not proffesor of biology to give you the proves and microscopic pictures and so on>>> are you taking all the effort of research of Dr. Moor and others and through it in the bin and wants us to belive in your rubbish
Please first read what Mr Moor did and said before getting false impressions like a lot of people who missunderstood nearly everything.
Mr Moor didn´t prove that there was no sophisticated research to mohammads time regarding embryology. He only stated his astonishment not more and not less. he was not aware of facts given by greek historians. This condition was misused by some people to underline the statement "Quran are Allah´s words" The Saudis are spending lot of money to scientific institutions so as to bring the solid evidence. Since the internet community is growing information is spreading quicker than ever before. In Europe we can assess that churches and christian communties are loosing members but they are not converting to Islam. This re-emergency has to do with incredibility of all those scripts.
Moller you are not a sencire person>>> you go to hatered web sites and bring the things which prove that the scetific things in the Quran are not correct
This is an assumption I don´t´like at all. You have to distinguish between hatered and critics. But this is a typical negative attitude towards people who do not believe in the "holly books" A typical attitude of people growing up in a patriarchic society.
first of all when you discuss such topic be brave and face the truth>>> you are not reacting to the answers which we gave it to you in right way>>> but it seems that you want to get arround the truth and convince your self that this is not correct>>>
These assumptions do not leed us to anywhere. My intention is to use my common sense and not my stomache.
i want you to understnad something: first the sentific facts in the Quran are classfied into two things, first >> clear and direct scientific facts and second not direct scetific fact>>>
Aha! This sentence is clear and unapologetic. Can you show me some links in the internet were I can make my own researches regarding direct and indirect scientific facts. This would be great.
the first one is one which need to be taken into consedration>> the second one: are the type of scientific facts that can explained into different ways becuse it is not very clear: example the 7 heavens>> some might say it is the 7 layers in the sky>>>but this can be incorrect effort>> the reason is because the scitific fact here it is not direct and clear>>
What I´vé always heard is that the Quran is clear and unambigious, in your statements now we´ve learned that its not clear what is meant with the 7 heavens. Oho!oho! We´ve learnd that we can interpretate parts of the Quran so or so.
now back to the topic>>you where talking about the Embrio stages and you were saying it is not correct while Dr. Moor says it is correct>>> you want me to belive you and not to belive a proffescor in biology who is not muslim>>>
This issue is already answered above. You can believe what you want.
secondly as i said before>>> the amazing thing is not that the Romons had some discovers at that time>> this possible no problem>>> but the amazing thing is>> to have all this Scences in biology in history in sceience of earth and the fortelling like in the chapter of the al-Room with no mistakes >>> here is mirricle>> got it>>> now i want you to get for me the reference above ^
Sorry!didn´t get it. There are many books who have no mistakes. What mistake do you mean exactly?
Please first read what Mr Moor did and said before getting false impressions like a lot of people who missunderstood nearly everything.
Ok you are correct here>> i meant Dr. T.V.N. Persaud
This is an assumption I don´t´like at all. You have to distinguish between hatered and critics(when you bring things from hatred sites is an indication that you are not sincere in your research that is why).
Aha! This sentence is clear and unapologetic. Can you show me some links in the internet were I can make my own researches regarding direct and indirect scientific facts. This would be great.Do you think i just give out comments without knowledge or background >>> here what you want:
For full answer :http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-Arabic-Ask_Scholar/FatwaA/FatwaA&cid=1122528607906
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What I´vé always heard is that the Quran is clear and unambigious, in your statements now we´ve learned that its not clear what is meant with the 7 heavens. Oho!oho! We´ve learnd that we can interpretate parts of the Quran so or so.look above
Sorry!didn´t get it. There are many books who have no mistakes. What mistake do you mean exactly? ok>> correct thair is books with no mistakes>> but what iam talking about is 1400 years ago a person who don't read or write brings knowldge in different kinds of knowledge and put in one book and not affraid that in the future ppl might find a mistake in the his book>>> but exactly the opposite the Quran makes a "clear" challange for ppl to come up with something like the Quran and says "clear" that the Quran has no mistakes.This what iam talking about>>> regarding that some holy books had some scietific things>> no problem>> becuase we belive that the bible came from God but it changed later>> so it possible have truth from it old remainings.
I want to remind that you didn't bring the refrence for your last comment which i asked you to do:
Also i would like to end this debate>> because i have no time for long debated i am student in the university and i don't have alot of free time for this may be others can continue with you>> for the time being every body can be proud of what he belives.
Moller do you know this person:
http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=tbn:kWMj_tGsl073fM:http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Science/BUCAILLE.JPG
]Dr. T.V.N. Persaud[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]
Professor of Anatomy and Head of the Department of Anatomy, and a Professor of Pediatrics and Child Health, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada>>>> do you know what he said >> Focus:
"It seems to me that Muhammad was a very ordinary man. He could not read or write. In fact, he was illiterate. We are talking about fourteen hundred years ago. You have someone who was illiterate making profound pronouncements and statements and that are amazingly accurate about scientific nature. I personally cannot see how this could be a mere chance There are too many accuracies and, like Dr. Moore,[SIZE=4][COLOR=Red]I have no difficulty in my mind in concerning that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which led him to these statements.
Firstly when a professor says something, that doesn't inevitably mean that he is on the right twig. Maybe its the case where you study but not were I had my studies intellectuals made and make mistakes daily.
Secondly what I can see and understand from above is the same regarding Mr. Moor. Dr. T.V.N. only states his astonishment I can't see any proof or I'm not capable of reading or understanding Dr. T.V.N. "You have someone who was [B]illiterate making profound pronouncements and statements and that are amazingly accurate about scientific nature I can't see any scientific evidence, no numbers, comparisons dates or similar. It just sounds like those who sell mixers and vacuum cleaner in the tv.
Now let us assume That the words were given by Gabriel to Muhammad, which I really doubt - then we ask ourselves why is the description in the Quran regarding the motion study of the sperm in comparison to that of ancient Greek less accurate?
Why is the description of the development of the Embryo in the Quran wrong? It is scientific fact that living tissue forms first, and then bones grow at a later time. The (Quran 23:13-14) states that the blood clot was turned to bone and then God "clothed the bones with flesh"
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Moller>>> can i ask you one question:
1- From where did the enery required for the big bang came from? remind you Energy canot be created nor destroyed
Hey
Did you find the proper answer?:D
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